After her book There Is No Good Family, which prompted readers to think about children, Nihan Kaya discusses her new book There Is No Good Society, which addresses the position of women, children, and, consequently, families in society.

Revisiting ingrained thoughts in society and speaking up about them is quite difficult. This is where author Nihan Kaya’s job isn’t easy. After leading readers to think about children in There Is No Good Family, Kaya highlights in her new book There Is No Good Society how women are pushed to the background in marriage. She uses examples from our very own stories, stories we have read and innocently thought of as harmless (such as The Ugly Duckling, Cinderella)… Kaya sheds light on how, in a patriarchal society, women are expected to perform many tasks, and while doing so almost compulsively, men are held in high regard. The author’s wish is for women to reconsider the roles they blindly accept and say “no” if they are unwilling. Happy women are happy mothers who raise their children in the same way, and this shapes society.

What motivated you to write There Is No Good Society after your book There Is No Good Family?
Actually, I wrote There Is No Good Society as the second part of There Is No Good Family, but my editor thought it would be better to publish it as a separate book. I believe There Is No Good Family would be incomplete without There Is No Good Society. After all, the family’s duty is to adapt the child to society… The family, often unknowingly, imposes the ways of society’s exploitation on the child, instilling the belief that this exploitation is necessary. This process prevents the individual from truly existing as an individual, which ultimately prevents both the family and society from truly existing. A good society is a transformable society. As individuals transform, the family and society will transform as well.

In your book, you openly discuss how behaviors imposed on you by your mother at a young age affected you. How did you come to the decision to change and direct your life? At what age did your awareness increase?
My awareness of household chores probably started around the age of 13-14, as I had lived through a period of exploitation related to this issue before. On the other hand, being able to notice anything negative about our parents or elders seems to be an endless process. The taboo of “mother-father” is very strong, and I am not exempt from this taboo. Still, whenever I address any negative behavior from my mother, I find myself quickly following up with how good, honest, and kind-hearted she is, just like many others. Since my first book, child victimization has been one of my main concerns; however, looking back now, I realize that I couldn’t fully express child victimization. The reason for this is the notion that explaining why and how a child is victimized is taught to us as disrespectful towards our parents. Every sentence that begins with “But mother/father…” prevents us from seeing the child’s situation clearly. We can mediate by listening to both sides of adults, but the same “let’s look at both sides” thinking does not apply between adults and children. The child is always the victim in cases of sexual abuse, for example, and we have only recently internalized this. This is not only true for sexual abuse, but in every case where there is a problem, the child is the victim, and we need to internalize that the child can never be a partner in the crime, whether it is emotional or physical abuse. There is no difference between emotional and sexual abuse.

In There Is No Good Society, you make the reader think deeply by pointing out common misconceptions and giving examples of how women are objectified in a patriarchal society, sometimes under the guise of innocent customs. Did you ever censor yourself while writing?
I personally cannot even say the word “circumcision” out loud. Writing about the most intimate topics or discussing them in class at university is something that, personally, I could struggle with. But I believe these are very important topics that shape all of us, and I think they must be discussed. So, even though emotionally challenging, I try to focus on the intellectual necessity of expressing everything as openly as possible. The same applies when talking about children. Many adults interpret the expression of how a child is victimized as an insult to themselves, and I am terrified of hurting people. However, when we always look at the child from the adult’s perspective, we cannot see how the adult victimizes the child unless someone explicitly says it. So, even though it is difficult for us to do, we must express the victimization of the child. Child victimization is something very invisible, and unless you speak up about the victimization that no one notices, society, as a whole, supports the wrongful act against the child, just as it happens everywhere.

What was the most surprising reaction you received regarding your previous book, There Is No Good Family?
The book was a scream that says, “Look, the child is suffering!” but the intensity of the child’s pain was perceived as anger. The expression of the child’s victimization was interpreted as an attack on parents. I think our ingrained taboos prevented the true tone of my book from being heard. I can’t speak angrily or accusingly, even if I wanted to. Additionally, I was surprised to see people write the exact opposite of what the book clearly said, and there were quite a few of them. They were expressing their personal discomfort with the book in a different form. But a text is not what you think it is, it is what it says.

In your book, you mention how women often face the greatest pain and destruction from other women. For example, you give examples of psychological abuse from women in a woman’s immediate circle. How should a woman stand up to psychological abuse from her own gender?
Women, because they are women, want other women to accept the same suffering they accepted. We must protect our boundaries; as long as we allow interference with these boundaries, especially as women, it is very difficult to remain strong. Otherwise, we live society’s life instead of our own, becoming its extension.

I’m curious about the ideal person figure in your mind when writing these books. Could you describe this “human figure”?
I think it’s someone who is trying to realize themselves. Someone who doesn’t confuse others’ wants, thoughts, and preferences with their own, and someone who owns their will.

Even educated people, after reading this book and agreeing with it, still continue to participate in or organize what you call “rituals for which vows must be made.” Do you think this reluctance to abandon societal rituals is due to fear of being excluded?
The idea of “others” has a significant effect on us. Neither those who organize these rituals nor those who participate in them actually want them. For instance, when you get married without a ceremony—like my spouse and I did—you have a lot more people admiring you, but these people are not brave enough to do the same for themselves. What upholds these rituals and traditions is the act of performing them one by one… Rest assured, if you don’t do what’s expected of you, nothing will happen, and people won’t ostracize you but will instead envy you.

You also touch on women who, after marriage, add their husband’s surname or change their surname entirely. Is this an attempt to take on a different identity, a different persona?
Our name is our identity, but women are taught from a very young age that they have no identity of their own and that their identity is tied to a man. The law reflects these ideas and shapes them. When I went to court to reclaim my name—yes, the need for a lawsuit is another issue!—the women working at the civil registry shamed me. They proudly said, “We never use two surnames; here, all of us take our husband’s surname only!” They had been taught to take pride in this. Society taught them that they would be loved if they acted this way, and unconsciously, they wanted to be loved. They couldn’t think that being loved for who they truly were wasn’t real love.

In order for women to avoid being objectified, they must stop performing actions society has assigned to them, but they are afraid of the pressure. How should women awaken?
A woman—or anyone—must not be afraid of thinking and questioning. When she begins to understand how her life has been exploited in ways she never noticed before, the transformation process will begin on its own. Everything hinges on awareness.

In this book, you also address the concept of men, through the lens of women. From the subtext of the book, it seems that men are not really guilty in their childhood, but have been taught by society and their families to push women into the background. Is this correct?
Yes. Men are taught that they have a right to this and that. It is not easy to give up things that they’ve been taught they are entitled to.